Implementation of HECM Principal Limit Reduction, “A Nightmare” says Industry

There has been a flood of potential reverse mortgage borrowers trying to schedule counseling before HUD implements a 10% reduction in principal limits for its Federal Housing Administration (FHA) insured reverse mortgage product.

Reverse mortgage lenders who obtain a FHA case numbers by September 30 can help their borrowers receive more proceeds, but not all borrowers have been able to schedule HECM counseling in time.

In order to obtain a case number, lenders must provide FHA with a signed counseling certificate that ensures the borrower has completed the counseling session.  However, getting this done has caused problems for HECM counselors as they try to meet the surge in demand.

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“It is nothing short of a nightmare,” said Jack Belles, President of Reverse Mortgage of New England.  He added that, “the seven day notice was not enough time to get this accomplished”.  Several other lenders I spoke with felt the same way.   

Even Money Management International, the largest nonprofit counseling agency in the US is having trouble meeting the demand.  The agency was already booked up until Oct. 1st when HUD made the announcement, but it was able to open up an additional 220 free counseling slots by reallocating other counselors said Daniel Fenton, Housing Director for MMI.  They were filled in 3 hours.

RMD continues to get questions from borrowers, lenders, and HECM counselors about the deadline, looking to see which counselors have available slots before Oct. 1st.  Unfortunately, despite the industry’s best efforts to meet the demand, the reality is that not all seniors will have the ability to receive counseling before the principal limit reduction.

Note:  If your a HECM counselor and have any spots open before the Oct. 1st deadline, leave your information in the comments and I’m sure someone will contact you.

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  • John Smaldone wrote in response to James_E_Veale_CPA_MBTrnrnJames,rnrnI appreciate you writing to me. I do understand what you are saying. Arnfriend of mine in HUD could not tell me much other than expect more changesrnand be on the look out soon for another directive from HUD. Sounds like yournare right on target James. Thanks for missing me, I will start coming backrnin the picture my friend. You have a great eveningrnrnTake care,rnrnJohn

  • Mr. Smaldone,rnrnGood to “hear your voice” and see your name in print once again. rnrnGet ready. We could only have a short breather before change occurs once more on the principal limit front. If the Conference Committee meets soon and a bill is enacted that requires a different percentage change to the principal limits than HUD just mandated, more change will be required. It is remotely possible that could happen before the end of the month.rnrnWhat just happened could be an annual event depending on the home appreciation rates that OMB chooses to use in its budget calculations. It is interesting to read the recent GAO report on HUD in this regard.rnrnThe story is far too complicated to be presented here. Its roots are in HERA. Not only did HERA fail us by driving Fannie Mae to increase margins on HECMs to avoid lack of compliance under HERA Section 1109 but it also resulted in a significant and permanent budget change under Section 2118(b)(2). Despite the passage of 14 months after HERA was enacted, several issues related to HERA Section 2122 have yet to be implemented.rnrnMarty Bell touched on one facet of the budget battle when he responded to the Consumer Reports article but there is much more to report. Sadly, like all good messengers, some are attacking HUD for its part in implementing what is expected from H.R. 3288, all due to HERA Section 2118(b)(2).rnrnWhat the current situation shows is that not even HECMs are immune from quick and immense changes. Here in California not only are we facing federal changes but many of us expect to see the Governor sign AB 329 into law before the holidays.rnrnI look forward to your input in the future.rn

  • Perhaps you can get some relief by calling the HECM contact, Dan Mooney at the Santa Ana HOC. His number is: (714) 796-1200 Ext. 3439. Results are not guaranteed, but it’s worth a try. Good luck.

  • What a disaster…I had people who were counseled in time, signed an application in time and yet could not get an FHA case number…why? simple, counseling done last evening could not be confirmed and certs received in time to issue a case number prior to FHA connection shutting down at 6pm pacific. Try explaining to borrowers why they now will not get the quotes they hoped for? This is why they should have gone on App and counseling date for Sept 30 and not FHA Case number assigned date…they should provide another 48 hr extension with issuance of case numbers to any client that had signed by Sept 30 and were also counseled…this was an absurd and shortsighted implementation of an important change in the program.

  • Good evening,rnrnI see everyone’s comments and some make sense and some are to gentle.rnrnI don’t care if NRMLA or who ever has been talking about this for months, so has Health Care Reform been talked about for months! It does not mean we are going to be prepared for it when it is announced and given so little time to adapt.rnrnThis is like everything that is happening in our country today, to fast, no time to digest and no time to structure your operation for it. Looks like a great deal of this is done on purpose to keep the American public constantly off guard.rnrnThe worst thing is the senior is put in shock once again. What about the widow who is facing foreclosure, the loan application was just taken, counseling was scheduled at 4:00 PM EST today. No way are we going to get it under the wire. Not only that, lets say we are only have a $1,000 to spare on a $200,000 value home. Guess what, we now have a shortage don’t we? One other thing, now possible foreclosure!rnrnOur senior and the Reverse Mortgage industry gets screwed again. We all know of the difficulty FNMA, FHA and the markets are having. However, what a time to impose this so quickly on the senior and the industry. Look at the economy, look at dropping housing values, how is this program going to survive for the real needy. Yes, homes with plenty of equity will not be effected as much but watch out after today and on Thursday morning!rnrnThese are sad times we live in, we have people in decision making rolls who don’t know what the word common sense is. These same people have no logic or understanding what these bills, changes, proposals and you name it that are jammed down our throats in such a fast and reckless way is doing to our country, our seniors and our industry. I am one American citizen and Reverse Mortgage Specialist who has just about had it.rnrnIf we really care about what is happening in our great nation and the mortgage industry as a whole, we will get off our duffs and start doing something about it rather than complaining and talking about it. After tomorrow many of you will feel like I do. Take a few minutes and go to this website: rnrnwww.USA-GodandCountry-Petition.com rnrnLook at it, look at the philosophy and issues that stand behind a very important message for all of us. You will read 10 pages of an outline and 13 issues that represent a petition circulating nationwide, it is very different than most, it has parts of it that pertain to seniors and the Reverse Mortgage industry. It does NOT even ask for any donations, it will be worth 15 minutes of your time to review it.rnrnI am not looking forward to tomorrow and all the applications that have been taken around the country that can’t get under the wire that are going to be effected. That is the rest of the story!rnrnJohn A. Smaldone

  • Richardhunter, you may be referring to the October 2nd requirement that the client received and review the National Council on Aging’s Use Your Home to Stay at Home brochure before attending their counseling session.rnrn

  • I am an HECM Counselor employed by Old Pueblo Community Foundation in Tucson, AZ. I can be reached for scheduling appointments at 520-301-5126 or email rtubac@aol.com. It is my understanding that clients must obtain and review material before counseling can be scheduled, but if potential clients are looking for a counselor, they can contact me and I will try to schedule a time.

  • Having been in the reverse mortgage business since 1990, I have seen many challenges and opportunities along the way. As entrepreneurs, we find ways to deal with them. rnSometimes government actions work in our favor, as when the allowable origination fee was increased from $1,800 to two percent of the maximum claim amount. Or when 2-4 unit properties became eligible. Or on various occasions when the FHA loan limit was increased as a percentage of the local median home value. Or when the single national limit was implemented, then increase.rnAt other times, such actions have not been helpful, such as when the secondary market increased its margin requirement and went to “live” pricing, or when our origination fee calculation was scaled back. rnNow we are faced with a “perfect storm” — the principal limit has been reduced by 10 percent, on top of the most severe decline in home values since the Great depression. rnTotal industry volume most certainly will decline, and not everyone who currently is in the business of originating HECM loans will remain. Those entrepreneurs who are able to adapt and market to a diminished population in a cost-effective manner will survive and prosper when the market returns.rnIt also is possible that Congress may decide to provide HUD with its requested subsidy, rendering this “haircut” temporary. On the other hand, if the economy recovers, returning the mortgage insurance fund to healthier status, HUD may decide to return to the original principal limit formula or improve it in some other way.

  • Now with reduced PLFs, the next challenge on the horizon will be increasing interest rates thus further reducing available proceeds. Even if property values increase modestly, the rates will erase the gains and more.rnrnThe Fed will have to act soon to reign in the risk of high inflation due to the massive infusion of dollars into circulation.

  • I’m no more fond of this Principal Limit reduction than anybody, but I’ve had an interesting development in my business. rnrnSomehow, some borrowers found the notice of the Oct 1st reduction on the internet and contacted me to take over their applications that had been languishing with a company that had been unsuccessful in getting FHA licensed and/or reverse lender contracts. They had their counseling and appraisals already done but no case number assigned, so this was an easy switch to make.rnrnIf you have any relationships with brokers or LOs that want to but can’t originate reverse mortgages, today would be a good time to call them. They might be willing to hand over the file to save a reputation with the borrowers or a refrral source.

  • Critic and KPR2570:rnrnYou are correct. We all knew this was coming. The problem is seniors do not want to be rushed. It’s a delicate situation when you are trying to get a senior to understand that changes are coming and they should act now. They percieve you as rushing them.rnrnWhen the changes actually arrive everyone is contacting their pipeline with concrete evidence that if they don’t sign now they will lose 10% of the principal limit that you originally quoted.rnrnI don’t believe that this was such an emergency that HUD could’nt have given us a 30 day notice!rnrnThis seems to be the nature of the beast lately with margin changes etc. This being the only game in town does not afford us much choice. I guess if we can’t stand the heat we better get out of the kitchen!

  • I personally took 18 applications in September, so I feel I qualify as efficient, informed, and prepared. Sure, like so many others I have read the news, and I kept my other loan officers informed that sometime this fall an LTV reduction would probably be announced; however, implementation just seven days after the announcement seems to be a decision made by people with no concept of how this would impact the sales dynamic.rnrnI used the news to motivate several fence sitters to sign an application; nonetheless, plenty of those in need will now be under water without the time to make the decision to fill out an application and partake of counseling. Seniors often need time, and don’t want to be rushed with such urgent news. It makes the loan officer sound as if he/she kept a secret from the client until the last moment.rnrnThat said, those of us in the industry for the long haul will continue to make this product work. I just wish those in decision making positions would have a couple of actively working loan officers as part of their deicsion making teams, more frequently. And, having the boss of a mortgage company as part of your decision making group, and calling him an active loan officer, is foolish.

  • Wherer is good ole PeterPanTinkerBell and his Lobby Group in all this? Sound to me like some folks are financially supporting a loser. This web site never changes: The Industry is blindsided; poor Seniors suffer. Maybe AARP that 300 million dollar lobby group can come to the rescue. Ya right.

  • Although we appreciate that HUD makes this program possible at all, I have been concerned for years that they are not aware of how their rules really affect the consumer aas they do not deal directly with the people on the street, so to speak. And even though we all knew something would happen, we still could only do so much to prepare our customers. rnrnSeniors don’t like to be rushed. They also don’t like fire sales and, without a mortgagee letter from HUD to prove this wasn’t a fire sale, it was difficult to motivate some consumers – especially those we haven’t been able to build relationships with quickly enough. Even the availability of free counseling, thanks to grants, didn’t motivate some of them to make a decision by the end of this month. rnrnI got some in during the last week, but some are still undecided and not grasping what the delay will mean. Especially in this area where we have been hard hit with not just declining values, but plunging values, in the last year (they have just received the proposed 2009 assessments), it is making a great difference as they fall into the short-pay category. The only good news is bidding wars on properties is finally causing a slight rise in prices. By slight, I mean $3000 to $10,000 that I have seen for certain. Hardly a counterpoint to losing 10%. rnrnNow many seniors are wanting to “wait for property values to go up” and I dispare they will lose more in waiting when values hardly go up or don’t go up at all. I simply keep them advised and hope for the best, believing this inaction will eventually serve to keep the loss mitigation attorneys busy.

  • Unfortunately, it would have been self-defeating for HUD to give more notice; they would have received 6 mos worth of loans in 30 days at the old PL limits and then faced the ‘wrath of Congress’ over the potential insurance fund shortfall the PL reduction was designed to prevent. Short notice was a conscious part of the implementation plan.

  • As the post mentioned, it was either short notice or shut it down until the appropriations bill passed. The better debate is on which would be better in the long run.

  • We have two slots open this afternoon and maybe 1 this evening, although that may be too late – Spectrum Generations, 3 – HECM Network/ HUD Roster Counselors, also approved for MA and VT counseling – Augusta, ME 207-623-0761

  • Critic, while long winded, it correct. How can any of you act as if you never saw this coming?!?! You DO read RMD.com right?!?!?! My bigger concern is this – THE LENDERS WILL BE A DISASTER FOR WEEKS OR MONTHS TO COME. I have spoken to some upper level people at major lenders and they are on the same page – implementing a new calculator, and using the old to complete files in process will be the TRUE NIGHTMARE!!! If you thought things got backed up earlier this year…..get ready. Think about it – you are a bank that has to deal with wholesale lenders and LO’s all over, and it’s up to them to use the correct calculator. This is gonna be interesting, I hope you are prepared!

  • Blindsided is the correct word. HUD should be ashamed. Failure to provide reasonable time to implement the reduction is an outrage.This should have been done in stages to give us time to get seniors counseled. What next?

  • call me 10 ten mintues from now and I should be able to do one more session today Cecil Sparks Housing And Reverse Mortgage Counselor HUD – HECM Network Member Counselor FNCC Certified Consumer Credit Counselor Money Management International | “Improving lives through financial education” Phoenix, AZ 85029 Office: Toll Free (800) 308-2227 Ext. 4745

  • Good point. I’m hoping and praying. Have done a pencil check with local appraisers. rnrnIt’s a perfect storm out there and an ugly one at that.rnrnHope all is well for you as well.

  • HUD can not even do it. I took a loan app yesterday (Monday and ordered the case number. Typically this is done very quickly but at this moment Tuesday (evening)a case number still has not been assigned?? Tomorrow is the deadline…come on HUD get your act together if they are going to set these deadlines! The least they could do is be prepared for the huge rush of orders!

  • The reality is beginning to sink in. Meeting 62 y/o couple tomorrow at financial advisor's office. $300K home / $150K mortgage.

    Rather than netting $14K at the end, they must bring in $3K.

    Being blindsided is no fun.

  • This may seem heartless but this hardly qualifies as a “blindsided” event. NRMLA has been warning that this event could take place for quite a while. Several who attended the NRMLA conference in DC said the problem HUD was facing was discussed there in June.

    In July there were rumors flying around that one of the “big five” RM lenders was instituting a 10% reduction in HECM Principal Limits in August. Some stated this lender had created the software needed to implement this change back in July. I personally received a frantic call from one correspondent who was excitedly saying that a member of management at this lender was warning that HUD would have a Mortgagee Letter out by the middle of July demanding reduction go into effect within 30 days.

    Three weeks ago, another correspondent who is not a NRMLA member inquired about the 10% reduction that he heard would go into effect on October 1, 2009. Another called about the same time telling me that an underwriter from another one of the “big five” had sent an email disclosing that after the HUD announcement, the LTMCA would be less than 64% on all HECMs for Purchase, clearly a false prediction but still a strong indication HUD would lower Principal Limits soon.

    The House bill was a definite warning in July and then along came the Senate bill with only a partial subsidy in August that was passed by the full Senate earlier this month. How would things be different if the Conference Committee actually got a bill out on September 21, 2009 demanding a 10% reduction? HUD cannot act until it is clear Congress has spoken and HUD wisely chose the worst of the two scenarios. The only other reasonable course of action would have been to shut down HECM operations until an appropriations bill was enacted.

    Prepared or not, this change has caused significant problems for a number of my clients. Some are too young but will be 62 before January. Some live in property that was to have become eligible for HECMs on 10/1/2009. While still others were saving to have enough money to use in paying off mortgages that the HECM proceeds alone could not cover.

    It is too bad some were not listening; however, I know of one senior that was all set to go. The wife will turn 62 tomorrow. Because they had prepared early and their lender was on top of the situation, they had their counseling done weeks ago and their application was completed in mid September. Tomorrow if all goes as planned the lender will have the FHA Case Number before noon.

  • With all due respect to “the critic”, there are many people that we have been speaking to prior to the announcement who barely qualified for the program and now with the change, will not qualify. Whether we as salespeople were prepared or not, a 7 day notice for implementation is nothing short of ridiculous. People should have been given at least 30 days to get applications signed, counselings completed and case numbers assigned. Too many clients will now not get this program do in large part because this decision, while in discussion for a long time, was announced with very little lead time…Facts are facts.

    • As the post mentioned, it was either short notice or shut it down until the appropriations bill passed. The better debate is on which would be better in the long run.

  • HUD can not even do it. I took a loan app yesterday (Monday and ordered the case number. Typically this is done very quickly but at this moment Tuesday (evening)a case number still has not been assigned?? Tomorrow is the deadline…come on HUD get your act together if they are going to set these deadlines! The least they could do is be prepared for the huge rush of orders!

  • call me 10 ten mintues from now and I should be able to do one more session today Cecil Sparks Housing And Reverse Mortgage Counselor HUD – HECM Network Member Counselor FNCC Certified Consumer Credit Counselor Money Management International | “Improving lives through financial education” Phoenix, AZ 85029 Office: Toll Free (800) 308-2227 Ext. 4745

  • Blindsided is the correct word. HUD should be ashamed. Failure to provide reasonable time to implement the reduction is an outrage.This should have been done in stages to give us time to get seniors counseled. What next?

  • Critic, while long winded, it correct. How can any of you act as if you never saw this coming?!?! You DO read RMD.com right?!?!?! My bigger concern is this – THE LENDERS WILL BE A DISASTER FOR WEEKS OR MONTHS TO COME. I have spoken to some upper level people at major lenders and they are on the same page – implementing a new calculator, and using the old to complete files in process will be the TRUE NIGHTMARE!!! If you thought things got backed up earlier this year…..get ready. Think about it – you are a bank that has to deal with wholesale lenders and LO's all over, and it's up to them to use the correct calculator. This is gonna be interesting, I hope you are prepared!

  • We have two slots open this afternoon and maybe 1 this evening, although that may be too late – Spectrum Generations, 3 – HECM Network/ HUD Roster Counselors, also approved for MA and VT counseling – Augusta, ME 207-623-0761

  • We have two slots open this afternoon and maybe 1 this evening, although that may be too late – Spectrum Generations, 3 – HECM Network/ HUD Roster Counselors, also approved for MA and VT counseling – Augusta, ME 207-623-0761

  • Unfortunately, it would have been self-defeating for HUD to give more notice; they would have received 6 mos worth of loans in 30 days at the old PL limits and then faced the 'wrath of Congress' over the potential insurance fund shortfall the PL reduction was designed to prevent. Short notice was a conscious part of the implementation plan.

  • Although we appreciate that HUD makes this program possible at all, I have been concerned for years that they are not aware of how their rules really affect the consumer aas they do not deal directly with the people on the street, so to speak. And even though we all knew something would happen, we still could only do so much to prepare our customers.

    Seniors don't like to be rushed. They also don't like fire sales and, without a mortgagee letter from HUD to prove this wasn't a fire sale, it was difficult to motivate some consumers – especially those we haven't been able to build relationships with quickly enough. Even the availability of free counseling, thanks to grants, didn't motivate some of them to make a decision by the end of this month.

    I got some in during the last week, but some are still undecided and not grasping what the delay will mean. Especially in this area where we have been hard hit with not just declining values, but plunging values, in the last year (they have just received the proposed 2009 assessments), it is making a great difference as they fall into the short-pay category. The only good news is bidding wars on properties is finally causing a slight rise in prices. By slight, I mean $3000 to $10,000 that I have seen for certain. Hardly a counterpoint to losing 10%.

    Now many seniors are wanting to “wait for property values to go up” and I dispare they will lose more in waiting when values hardly go up or don't go up at all. I simply keep them advised and hope for the best, believing this inaction will eventually serve to keep the loss mitigation attorneys busy.

  • Wherer is good ole PeterPanTinkerBell and his Lobby Group in all this? Sound to me like some folks are financially supporting a loser. This web site never changes: The Industry is blindsided; poor Seniors suffer. Maybe AARP that 300 million dollar lobby group can come to the rescue. Ya right.

  • I personally took 18 applications in September, so I feel I qualify as efficient, informed, and prepared. Sure, like so many others I have read the news, and I kept my other loan officers informed that sometime this fall an LTV reduction would probably be announced; however, implementation just seven days after the announcement seems to be a decision made by people with no concept of how this would impact the sales dynamic.

    I used the news to motivate several fence sitters to sign an application; nonetheless, plenty of those in need will now be under water without the time to make the decision to fill out an application and partake of counseling. Seniors often need time, and don't want to be rushed with such urgent news. It makes the loan officer sound as if he/she kept a secret from the client until the last moment.

    That said, those of us in the industry for the long haul will continue to make this product work. I just wish those in decision making positions would have a couple of actively working loan officers as part of their deicsion making teams, more frequently. And, having the boss of a mortgage company as part of your decision making group, and calling him an active loan officer, is foolish.

  • Critic and KPR2570:

    You are correct. We all knew this was coming. The problem is seniors do not want to be rushed. It's a delicate situation when you are trying to get a senior to understand that changes are coming and they should act now. They percieve you as rushing them.

    When the changes actually arrive everyone is contacting their pipeline with concrete evidence that if they don't sign now they will lose 10% of the principal limit that you originally quoted.

    I don't believe that this was such an emergency that HUD could'nt have given us a 30 day notice!

    This seems to be the nature of the beast lately with margin changes etc. This being the only game in town does not afford us much choice. I guess if we can't stand the heat we better get out of the kitchen!

  • I'm no more fond of this Principal Limit reduction than anybody, but I've had an interesting development in my business.

    Somehow, some borrowers found the notice of the Oct 1st reduction on the internet and contacted me to take over their applications that had been languishing with a company that had been unsuccessful in getting FHA licensed and/or reverse lender contracts. They had their counseling and appraisals already done but no case number assigned, so this was an easy switch to make.

    If you have any relationships with brokers or LOs that want to but can't originate reverse mortgages, today would be a good time to call them. They might be willing to hand over the file to save a reputation with the borrowers or a refrral source.

  • Now with reduced PLFs, the next challenge on the horizon will be increasing interest rates thus further reducing available proceeds. Even if property values increase modestly, the rates will erase the gains and more.

    The Fed will have to act soon to reign in the risk of high inflation due to the massive infusion of dollars into circulation.

  • Having been in the reverse mortgage business since 1990, I have seen many challenges and opportunities along the way. As entrepreneurs, we find ways to deal with them.
    Sometimes government actions work in our favor, as when the allowable origination fee was increased from $1,800 to two percent of the maximum claim amount. Or when 2-4 unit properties became eligible. Or on various occasions when the FHA loan limit was increased as a percentage of the local median home value. Or when the single national limit was implemented, then increase.
    At other times, such actions have not been helpful, such as when the secondary market increased its margin requirement and went to “live” pricing, or when our origination fee calculation was scaled back.
    Now we are faced with a “perfect storm” — the principal limit has been reduced by 10 percent, on top of the most severe decline in home values since the Great depression.
    Total industry volume most certainly will decline, and not everyone who currently is in the business of originating HECM loans will remain. Those entrepreneurs who are able to adapt and market to a diminished population in a cost-effective manner will survive and prosper when the market returns.
    It also is possible that Congress may decide to provide HUD with its requested subsidy, rendering this “haircut” temporary. On the other hand, if the economy recovers, returning the mortgage insurance fund to healthier status, HUD may decide to return to the original principal limit formula or improve it in some other way.

  • I am an HECM Counselor employed by Old Pueblo Community Foundation in Tucson, AZ. I can be reached for scheduling appointments at 520-301-5126 or email rtubac@aol.com. It is my understanding that clients must obtain and review material before counseling can be scheduled, but if potential clients are looking for a counselor, they can contact me and I will try to schedule a time.

  • Richardhunter, you may be referring to the October 2nd requirement that the client received and review the National Council on Aging's Use Your Home to Stay at Home brochure before attending their counseling session.

  • What a disaster…I had people who were counseled in time, signed an application in time and yet could not get an FHA case number…why? simple, counseling done last evening could not be confirmed and certs received in time to issue a case number prior to FHA connection shutting down at 6pm pacific. Try explaining to borrowers why they now will not get the quotes they hoped for? This is why they should have gone on App and counseling date for Sept 30 and not FHA Case number assigned date…they should provide another 48 hr extension with issuance of case numbers to any client that had signed by Sept 30 and were also counseled…this was an absurd and shortsighted implementation of an important change in the program.

    • Perhaps you can get some relief by calling the HECM contact, Dan Mooney at the Santa Ana HOC. His number is: (714) 796-1200 Ext. 3439. Results are not guaranteed, but it's worth a try. Good luck.

  • John Smaldone wrote in response to James_E_Veale_CPA_MBTrnrnJames,rnrnI appreciate you writing to me. I do understand what you are saying. Arnfriend of mine in HUD could not tell me much other than expect more changesrnand be on the look out soon for another directive from HUD. Sounds like yournare right on target James. Thanks for missing me, I will start coming backrnin the picture my friend. You have a great eveningrnrnTake care,rnrnJohn

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